2 Wrongs Don’t Make A Right

June 9, 2009 by  
Filed under Opinion

I am happy to report that on May 31, 2009 60,000 babies may have been given another chance at life. I am also sad to report that more than 60,000 babies have already been killed by one man. Although the murders he committed were legal, that in no way makes them justified. I am sorry that it took the illegal actions of one man to save so many lives. I am not trying to glorify the man who shot the doctor, as with any murder it is a heinous act and will be handled in a court of law. I do feel bad that this gentleman felt he had no other recourse but to take matters into his hands to save these children. No one who is truly Pro-Life can feel justified by the murder of another human. I do pray for this man’s soul and the family of the doctor. If there is ever to be any justice in this world we will have to decide what the value of a human life is, especially that of an innocent child.

There are zealots in every walk of life and in every belief system. Not all people who are Pro-life want to kill an abortion doctor most simply want to stop the killing of innocent babies. The most important thing to remember, in the words of Edmund Burke, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

Be Sociable, Share!
  • James

    I think I agree with what you are trying to say.

    You cannot be truly pro-life and celebrate the unlawful killing of anyone, even an abortion doctor.

    The most important thing right now is to pray that Sonja Sotomayor is a stealth pro-life vote against Roe v. Wade. Improbable, but not impossible as some pro-life advocates have noted (given her record on this issue is unclear).

    • Ron J

      I have also heard some say that she maybe a closet pro-life vote, and I do hope that she is, because I do not see anyway she does not get elected. I pray that Roe vs Wade is reversed soon no matter who the jurors are.

  • Kurt

    Pro-Life people won a victory. Their rhetoric convinced an insane individual to murder a doctor who performs abortions… and as a result his family is too scared to continue his practice, and permanently closed the facility.

    We have a word for that… it’s called terrorism. Apparently Christians extremists have learned from the Muslim Extremists that it’s an effective strategy.

    • http://www.theconservativist.com Gary Coats

      Kurt, glad to see you visiting.

      In our many conversations, you have always added an interesting perspective and provoked thought into my decisions and positions.

      Again, you do it again.

      I am really curious to see the response this comment receives.

    • Ron J

      So if I am to understand you Kurt, one insane individual makes a whole group terrorist. I guess that makes the Democrats one of the earliest terrorist groups. See by your reasoning the shooting of Abraham Lincoln by John Wilkes Booth was a terrorist attack. Could it not simply be that one insane individual who could not take what was going on, decided to take things into their own hands. Pro-life people are glad that his practice is not open anymore, but not that it cost him his life. See most Pro-choice miss the basic idea behind PRO-LIFE. That means that we do not want anyone to be killed, whether it be a baby or a Dr. who was hired to kill them. All lives are precious to God. Even those who do not understand it is inherently evil to kill a baby.

      • Kurt

        Notice I said: “Extremist”.

        There are wacko’s who push the religious right’s agenda through violence. It’s fair to call them “Christian Extremists”… just like it’s fair to say those that push the hardline Muslim agenda “Islamic Extremists” or “Muslim Extremists”.

        The guy who did this is a memeber of Operation Rescue… a group that tracked Tiller’s movements and broadcast them over the internet. The founder of Operation Rescue (Randall Terry) said the following after Tiller’s murder:

        “George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. Unless some miracle happened, he left this life with his hands drenched with the innocent blood of tens of thousands of babies that he murdered. Surely there will be a dreadful accounting for what he has done. I believe George Tiller was one of the most evil men on the planet; every bit as vile as the Nazi war criminals who were hunted down, tried, and sentenced after they participated in the ‘legal’ murder of the Jews that fell into their hands.”

        He also released a video which stated Tiller had “reaped what he sowed.”

        Cheryl Sullenger (an operation rescue policy adviser) admitted to informing Scott Roeder of where Dr Tiller would be at specific times. Oh… and she was convicted in 1988 of attempting to bomb abortion clinics in the San Diego area.

        Are all anti-abortion people terrorists? Nope. Neither are all Christians. But Scott Roeder and the people at Operation Rescue certainly are. Their ranks are full of people who have attempted violence in some form against abortion providers. They also use rhetoric that while it doesn’t specifically say “Go kill the guy”, plants a very clear message.

        Bombs (or even bomb threats), murder and threats of damnation in the afterlife are all attempts at terrorizing individuals to change their behavior. I’m not saying they can’t work, and I’m not even saying the goal is wrong… but it is definitely a case of accepting that the ends justify the means.

        Apparently some in the anti-abortion lobby believe that terrorism is a valid means toward preventing abortions. You can determine if you think that’s the right thing or not… but let’s call a spade a spade.

        Islam isn’t the only religion with fanatics practicing terrorism in the US anymore.

        • April

          Kurt

          You make a much more clear and much less generalized statement in your defense statement. In your first comment, you seemed to lump all pro-life and Christians in together with these people. I don’t like being called a terrorist, extremist, radical or fanatic for that matter-but I am pro-life and a conservative Christian. I don’t think the ends justified the means and this man surely did not deserved to be killed for being pro-choice, but an entire movement cannot be condemned for the actions of a few.

          • Kurt

            I don’t disagree with what you said… but I do think that the rhetoric that comes out from many who claim to abhor the killing of Dr. Tiller actually encourage such actions.

            If you (and I mean this in the generic “you”, not you personally) are engaging in such rhetoric when arguing or protesting this issue… you’re contributing to an environment that supports terrorism.

            For example, I personally think Palestinians are getting a raw deal in Jerusalem right now… but I’m not going to get up and start screaming that Jews are evil, or start comparing them to Nazi’s… because that empowers groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. There are ways to protest without inflaming a situation and giving the anti-social or mentally unbalancend individuals out there any ideas about committing acts of terror.

            Unfortunately, that’s what is happening with this issue. There’s a lot of VERY heated rhetoric using a lot of VERY inflamatory language. And the issue is that the “fighting words” are only coming from one side of the argument.

            We’re likely seeing a beginning to the type of violence on this issue we saw in the 90’s. There were 5 murders of abortion doctors and 6 attempted murders of abortion doctors in the 90’s… the last in 1998. Many had hoped this sort of thing was behind us.

          • Jeremy Rogers

            GEORGE TILLER HAD MULTIPLE WARNINGS FROM GOD AND REFUSED THEM ALL. ABORTION IS MURDER!

  • anon

    I guess it depends on how literally you take the Old Testament of the Bible. It says murderers are to be put to death. Right? An abortion doctor is a murderer, right? There is God’s law, and then there is man’s law. I suppose it depends on how seriously and literally you take God’s law, as to whether you will follow man’s law.

    • Kurt

      We have freedom of religion in this country. If using the “laws” of a religious text is excuse for an action… then can I follow these passages from the Qu’Ran and kill you? Would that be justified?

      Qur’an (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

      See? Allah says it’s okay for me to chop off your head and remove all your fingers.

      Ibn Ishaq: 992 – “Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah.”

      You don’t believe in Allah? Then I can killy you!

      Tabari 9:69 “Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us”

      Not only can I kill you… it’s no big deal!

      Oh wait… I forgot… it’s only okay to murder if you’re following the Christian God… not the Muslim one. Good thing I remembered that… otherwise I might think there was some hypocrisy going on.

      • Ron J

        Our country is formed on religious freedom, so you got that right. Once you start quoting the Qur’an you lose all relevance to the conversation. Unlike your Allah who justifies the killing of innocents, the Christian God does not believe that this is the way to react. Christians try to change how people think with out violence. The man who killed the Dr. was disturbed and was not listening to God he was simply following what he believed not what he was truly taught. As I have said before extremeist are the ones who take things to far, just as what you stated about the Qur’an is what makes them a religion of terrorist.

        • Kurt

          Read the post I was responding to.

          “I guess it depends on how literally you take the Old Testament of the Bible. It says murderers are to be put to death. Right? An abortion doctor is a murderer, right? There is God’s law, and then there is man’s law. I suppose it depends on how seriously and literally you take God’s law, as to whether you will follow man’s law.”

          He seemed to be implying that following “God’s Law” to kill an abortion doctor might be justified as opposed to defying god and following man’s law.

          My point was that if it’s good for the goose (christians) then would it be good for the gander (muslims)?

          And is his statement about Christianity enough to make that a religion of terrorists? I mean… if god’s law indicates an abortion doctor who hasn’t broken any civil law should be put to death… isn’t that just as bad?

          I know, I know… you don’t think they are “innocents”. Ever think they might not think you are “innocent” either? Does that make either view okay?

          I tend to think not… but then again I do seem to be in the minority in this thread.

          Oh, and I’m not Muslim (though I really don’t see that it would matter if I were). I’m just using examples from the current “evil religion” to contrast with Christianity to make a point. I could do the same with Hinduism if you like. (Not Budhism though… they really ARE peaceful unlike most modern religions). Judaism has some violent stuff in the Torah as well… and of course shares the Christian stuff from the Old Testament.

          • Ron J

            I do apologize that I didnt address my answer to you based on the initial response I was simplying responding to what you wrote.
            Once again I will point out this country and its laws were set up on Christian values not Muslim. I do agree as stated in the Bible you render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser and that means abiding by the laws. And in our country as backwards as it is we allow the killing of INNOCENT babies. If an abortion Dr feels I am worthy of killing because I am not innocent he can most assuredly bring it on. I think all of us in this post will realize that the Innocents we are talking about are babies.
            As far as the current “evil religion” I think the verses that you qouted prove why around this country most people fear Muslims. I think as far as Hindus go unless you are gonna try to take my steak and hamburger I dont feel they are particualrly dangerous. Muslims on the other hand if you look at their history are a very violent religion and the terrorism they spread all over the world proves it. All the other religions you could think of do not have as bloody a history current or past. Glad you are not a Muslim.

          • Kurt

            Christianity has just as bloody a past as islam. If we want to talk history of religions (which I’m not saying we should), it’s tough to surpass what was done in the crusades (largely against the followers of islam).

            Look… regardless of what your faith is, if you use that faith to justify violence of any kind, I’m not going to agree with it. Christians have done that in the past (there were quite a few crusades, inquisitions, lynchings and holy wars justified by the bible), and do it currently (the justification of killing Dr. Tiller). Muslims have done the same.

            And I’m sad to say the Hindus aren’t any different. You can read about Hindu violence against christians in India over the years with a quick internet search if you like. The violence between Hindus and Muslims when India became free of the British was quite vile as well… and largely led by the Hindus.

            Saying you are “Glad I am not a Muslim” is quite insulting. Idiots have ALWAYS used religion to justify violence… regardless of the religion. Classifying the entire religion based on actions of a select group is very discriminatory.

            Should I judge all christians based on the guy who shot Dr. Tiller? Should I judge them on the Crusades? The Spanish inquisition? The colonial witch hunts? The KKK?

            Do you even realise that is what you are doing when you speak that way about the religion of Islam?

            Using religious justification for violence against others is WRONG. It’s wrong when muslims do it. It’s wrong when christians do it. It’s wrong when ANYONE does it.

          • Ron J

            I do agree Kurt most religions have a bloody past. Islam by far has the bloodiest current history. Yes the Crusades were against people of Islam and sadly that war was not won so it still goes on today, in Israel.
            I am not using faith or Christianity to justify what happened to Dr. Tiller. I do however believe you reap what you sow.
            And yes Hindus have had a history of violence, but honestly not worth mentioning here.
            Seeing as how I have no idea what your Religious beliefs are and you have not stated, I will tell you obviously I am Christian and proud of that fact. Saying that I am glad you are not Muslim in no way should be insulting, but if that is the way you feel then I guess you need more prayer than I thought. I did not discriminate against you or Muslims in any way. I simply stated that I am thankful for you, that you are not Muslim. If you are Muslim that is your choice, and I would pray for you anyway.
            In my mind the idiot is the one who tries to judge others the way you are doing. You can judge anyone based on anything you like. I can judge by the way you defend your stances that you are either an agnostic or aethist, but I may be wrong. So I would say not to choose based on one singular event. The fact the Dr bragged about the number of babies he killed makes him despicable and any IDIOT who would defend him needs help themselves. You can judge all religions based on things that have happened in the past. The most important thing is to realize that religious people change as do the times, but the doctrine remains the same.
            As far as, do I realize what I said when I stated that Islam was the “evil religion”, I stand by that statement. Again as I stated the scriptures that YOU stated do not preach the peace and love that this religion supposedly reflects. I believe you can look at terrorism as a whole around the world and see Islam. I know that Christianity has had dark times and has done a lot in the name of the Lord, but Christians in this world today are killing people based on their religions. Christians go out around the world to convert not kill non-believers, unlike Muslims.
            There is no way you can defend the world that the Muslims have made for themselves and for others to have to deal with. The violence against other religions, the violence toward women, and the simple brutality of its laws make Islam an “evil religion”.

          • Kurt

            Ron, I feel sorry for you in that you feel that you can label a religion followed by 1.5 billion people world-wide as evil… and feel you are being a good christian while doing so.

            I’m sorry… but Christians ARE killing people for their beliefs. I prefer to label those individual PEOPLE as evil rather then the entire Christian faith… but you apparently judge religions differently.

            I prefer to think the man who killed Dr. Tiller was evil rather then the entire christian faith.

            I prefer to think Eric Rudolph who bombed abortion clinics, gay bars and the olympics was evil, rather then the entire christian faith.

            I prefer to think the KKK and their members are evil… not the entire christian faith of which the vast majority are members.

            But hey… you go right ahead and call 1.5 billion people evil. I would say it’s not a very christian attitude… but who am I to judge?

          • Ron J

            Finally Kurt I think we agree. People who act or behave as the man who killed Dr. Tiller or Eric Rudolph are evil and crazy.
            The KKK, well once again we are reaching back to the past there aren’t we. I would not know where to find the KKK today, and as far as I know they express a radical side of a religious point of view. They believe also they are doing what the Bible states. Since I know you are not a Christian I will fill you in on a little secret. No where in the Bible does it say you are to wipe out other races. In the old testament people were instructed in war to do such things but not as acts of violence.
            So once again I agree with you the KKK, Eric Rudolph and the killer of Dr. Rudoplph follow what they believe is gods word. Their problem is that the things they do are not instructed in the Bible or instructed by God. Atleast not the Christian God.
            So you have named two people who are acting on what they believe is gods word. Please tell me other Christians who are killing in the name of God or committing acts of terrorism. You know if you are honest with your self that there are more people acting in the name of Islam killing people in the world today than those acting in the name of the Lord God.
            I will also say that I called the religion evil not the people. Anyone that believes as you apprently do that the verses you refered to are not evil, apparently have a skewed idea of evil. I don’t belive most Muslims are evil but as I have stated anyone that believes that it is ok to chop off the head of another who doesn’t belive as they do is EVIL.
            Let me make it real simple for you Kurt. If someone you loved has their head chopped off on the street because they are not Muslim, is that person evil or simply acting on a loving doctrine? I have a feeling you know the answer and anything other than the person was evil is a lie.

          • Kurt

            Ron… just because I’m tolerant and aware of what other religions actually are about as opposed to what the media tells us they are about does not mean I’m not a Christian.

            More people?

            -How about the IRA in Northern Ireland… perhaps the most prolific terrorist group of 70’s and 80’s?
            -The Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda?
            -The National Liberation Front of Tripura (one of the 10 most active terrorist groups in the world) in India?
            -The Army of God in the US?
            -The Aryan Nations in the US?
            -The Lambs of Christ in the US?

            I understand you honestly believe Christianity is different… but you simply are not well informed. It is a religion like any other… with fanatic terrorists like any other. Just because you are not aware of these groups does not mean they don’t exist and havent’ killed people.

            If verses are all it takes to be evil:

            “And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.”

            So… god personally killed virtually every living thing on the planet. Yikes! How many babies did he wipe out with that?

            “And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.”

            Of course, god spared Isaac in the end… but he did want to make sure Abraham was willing to kill him… nice little test there.

            Then of course there’s Exodus. I think we both can agree that god really roughed the Egyptians up pretty good there. Especially the killing of children (you know… first born sons and all).

            “And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the LORD hath kindled. ”

            Dang… what would he have done if they had sex with children like some of today’s priests are doing?

            “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. ”

            Hope everyone is watching their tongues… or god will KILL YOU.

            “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. ”

            Commit adultry… and god will KILL YOU.

            ” If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

            Gay? God will KILL YOU.

            “And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people. ”

            Sleep with a woman having her period? Well, he won’t kill you… you just get kicked out/excommunicated I guess.

            ” And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.”

            Yikes!

            And of course there is more. But I guess none of those are instructions toward acts of violence in your eyes? I mean, much of that was god talking to Moses and others directly.

            Look… Islam is not evil. Neither is christianity. There are PLENTY of evil people who do evil things in the name of both religions.

            You just seem unwilling to admit this to yourself.

          • Ron J

            Well Kurt I am glad you are able to do research to bad you do not understand what you are reading.
            You are right there are people in both religions who do wrong. My only complaint as I have pointed out is that Islam teaches to kill those you do not agree with them religiously.
            The scriptures you are quoting from the Bible are all in the Old Testament. Those laws were handed down to Moses and the people of Isreal. If you understood Christianity I guess you would know that God did punish those who did not follow him, aka the flood and the exodus. God gave all those people a chance to change their ways and they did not. I do not think it wise to question God’s logic but if you feel like that is your place feel free. As far as Abraham is concerned, his faith was tested, maybe not the way any of ours ever has but God does want to know we are willing to follow him.
            Gee who would think it is wrong to commit adultery, curse, and heaven forbid be gay. Look these items you have listed are not only found in the Bible, but most are found in the Torah and what do you know in the Quran also.
            The key thing abot most of these verses that you quoted is that they are from the Old Testament and are not part of law. As I have pointed out our laws and most in Western cultural are from the Bible.
            Getting back to your list of groups, they are not following the rules of the Bible or Christ. I mean serioulsy besides the IRA who as you put it were active more in the 70-80’s, the other groups are not major terrorist groups. The group in Uganda is in Uganda and they are not a world renown terrorist group. The Arayan nation, come on you said the KKK yesterday. These are not religious groups. Just because they say they are and quote some scripture does not mean they are following God. Anyone who sits down and reads the Bible is not gonna follow those groups. They may say the right things but they do not follow the word of God. Islam does teach terrorism that is a simple fact. It is the one of the largest religions in the world, and not all of those are terrorist. I do not deny that, but the simple fact is that a religion that teaches those things is evil.
            I realize you will never understnad that Kurt for that I am sorry. I am not saying all Muslims are evil but those that study it and use it the way it is instructed are evil. You and I obviously have a diffrent idea about religion and evil. I know my faith and am very comfortable with what I have written. I do not think there is anything else that can be said to convince you of what is evil.

          • Kurt

            Ron, while I do understand those quotes are from the old testament, do you think Muslims see a difference? The fact is God is TELLING his followers to KILL people for actions. Not to punish them… not that they’ll be punished in the afterlife…

            but to get off their butts and put those people to DEATH.

            Why do you see a difference between these passages and Qu’Ran passages I listed? Do you even know what section of the Qu’Ran they are from? Do you know what the surrounding text is of the quotes I listed? I doubt it.

            For example:

            “If they(those of other religions) leave you alone and offer to make peace with you, God does not allow you to harm them.” (4:90)

            Essentially the Qu’Ran says that if someone is attacking you about religion… you can attack them right back. But if they leave you alone… GOD COMMANDS YOU NOT TO HARM THEM.

            Islamic extremist groups are not following the words of the Qu’Ran either. But you haven’t bothered investigating it before stating the entire religion is evil. You can’t bear to think that Al Quaeda is to Islam as the IRA is to Christianity. You don’t even have a clue what the platform of the KKK or Aryan Nations ARE… they’re entire existance is based around misinterpretations of the bible and saying that god gives them the rights for those actions…

            JUST LIKE AL QUAEDA DOES WITH MISINTERPRETING THE QU’RAN.

            Do you know that thousands of Imam’s have spoken out against terrorism? Do you know that thousands support the US war on terror?

            Here’s a link to just one single document condemning terror signed by a number of mosques and imams… and there are tons of these. http://islamnewsroom.com/news-mainmenu-28/373-whywedonthear.html

            About the same number of Imams support terrorism as Christian priests and ministers support killing abortion doctors… perhaps less. It is an EXTREME MINORITY view in Islam… yet you judge the whole religion on that.

            It is EXACTLY like using the IRA or KKK to judge all of Christianity… you’re just too poorly informed to realize it.

            Islam does not teach terrorism… and more than Christianity teaches killing anyone who curses. Both are simply some verses that if taken out of context can be used to smear the entire religion. You are doing that with Islam… while defending Christianity from the same sort of characterization.

            That’s called hypocrisy.

            Have you killed any homosexuals today? The bible gives directions to do so… and that is as clear a fact as the instructions to do violence in the Qu’Ran.

            I do feel sorry for you as well. You seem to judge other religions without actually studying what they preach, and you seem to judge me without having a clue what I believe or how I live my life. You seem to judge a lot, but actually know very little about those you judge.

            I’ll pray for your soul. Only god knows if you need it… but I have some suspicions.

          • Ron J

            Well Kurt I am not sure what god you are praying to, but I can promise you that my God, the God knows what I believe.
            I am not sure what your religion of if you have a religion. I have pointed out my beliefs and just so you know I have sudied other religions. I have taken comparative religion courses. I feel comfortable with what I have said. I only commented on the verses that you wrote if there was a problem with the verses you wrote, if you left out part to make a point then that is your problem. I can only comment on what you wrote. If you dont feel those verses are evil and you think that they can be explained then do so. I told you that those comments you made were in the Old Testament and if you actually knew anything of the Bible you would know that those rules and laws did not apply after Jesus came.
            As far as judging others and judging you, I told you what I thought of those verses and a religion that would preach that. I can assure you that if you or anyone stood up to a crowd and read those verses, everyone would know that those words are EVIL. I did not judge you I simply made a statement and you have not proven anything else with the way you speak. The only thing I can say is that this discussion will not get any where and I feel it is time to end it. Thanks for the ideas sorry I couldnt convince you otherwise.

          • Kurt

            Ron… I’ve tried to make you see by showing you equally evil verses from the Bible and Qu’Ran that both texts have evil passages that can be used to justify idiotic actions by extremists following either religion.

            You can’t seem to grasp the fact that someone using the passages I referenced from the Qu’Ran is ignoring the true basis of their religion just as much as someone using the passages I referenced from the Bible.

            You seem to think that the Christian extremist doing that is evil and not a true Christian… while the Islamic extremist is evil and following an evil religion.

            I can only guess ignorance drives your statements in this… but you seem more comfortable with a completely hateful viewpoint that ignores the actual facts rather then learning that you might not know a thing about what you are talking about.

            Now as for the Old Testament not counting… I wish more people saw it that way. But when people protest… the Old Testament verses are what you hear screamed out. Many of the churches I’ve attended feel free to dip into the old testement for much of their doctrine.

            And unfortunately, Jesus agreed with them.

            “Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)”

            “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.’ (Matthew 23:1-3)”

            Now where Jesus expressly contradicts laws in the Old Testament, it’s reasonable to assume his new commands take precedence. That doesn’t mean the old testament is just to be ignored. In fact, in many cases the New Testament reaffirms the violent passages in the old testament.

            Remember the one on cursing?

            Well here’s what is in Matthew in the new testament:

            “For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ ”

            In fact… Jesus was DIRECTLY supporting that passage in the Old Testament in speaking to the Pharises.

            Ron… these texts were written in a different time. There are many examples of hate, violence, death, and poor behavior in the Bible and the Qu’Ran. But the foundation of both books is in peace.

            You seem to only be willing to accept this in Christianity… pointing out the “evil” in the Qu’Ran while ignoring the “evil” in the Bible. You have to ignore the evil in both and get down to the root in both religions… peace.

            You shouldn’t let misinformed extremists paint the picture for either side.

          • Ron J

            I guess the igonrance is the people who use the verses as they see fit and not in the verses themselves in the Bible. As I told you I do know the bible and I do know that religions as well as people use verses to get what they want. I believe you are one of those people Kurt. You speak of going to churches, but you fail to understand the verses and you do not accept what you hear. That tells me that you lack faith and you lack the understanding do be a Christian, but that is truly between you and God. I hope you realize that by using the verses out of context that you are using them to your own end. I dont know if that is ain in the Quran but I do know that it is in the Bible. I think you should simply stop while you are ahead. I do hope you find faith and God one day. As for me I believe this line of discussion is over, Thank you.

          • Kurt

            Strangely enough Ron, I agree with you in part.

            The ignorance IS in the people who mistakenly interpret the verses… not in the verses themselves.

            Those ingorant people do evil things.

            Self proclaimed Christians do that. Self proclaimed muslims do that.

            The difference is you see islam as an evil religion, rather then applying the exact same logic you apply to christianity to their beliefs. You are upset when I use bible verses out of context, but call Islam evil when I do the same sort of thing with verses from the Qu’Ran.

            If you hadn’t noticed… I’m not calling EITHER religion evil. All I’ve said is that there are christian zealots who misinterpret the bible and believe that gives them the right to commit terrorist acts… just like their are islamic extremists who do the same thing with the Qu’Ran. I’m not arguing “for” or “against” either religion… I’m pointing out both have pasages that can be taken out of context as justification for evil.

            Ron… despite you trying to turn this into a discussion about me and my faith… I’m simply not going to go there. I’m very comfortable with myself and my relationship with god, and frankly I don’t really care how you feel about it. I don’t believe you have any business judging it one way or another.

            Oh… and if you want to stop a discussion… stop posting. Trying to get the last word is a sure way to make sure a discussion continues.